Genetry Solar 'Parallel (AKA Daisy Chain) Mode

Almost wonder if a 3-way transfer switch (or 2 cascaded 2-way transfer switches) for your house would be something you might want to consider?

1. AC Mains Grid
2. Inverters
3. Generator

So you could run on grid if you wanted...or if there's enough power in your batteries, you could switch to Inverters.  And if you need to charge your batteries + run your house, you could switch to Generator (house on 10kw generator), and the "master" inverter could charge the batteries at full power (with no load on the output).

Maybe that'd be a solid start for the system?

Yes now we're getting somewhere I have a heavy..cord not just a drop cord that plugs into the generator going to the panel double breaker I have room for one more double breaker on opposite side just to say also can build a heavy receptical box in generator building putting solar in a larger building 20'or so from house.now you know what I need can we make it work.id bet you can.

My hesitation with breakers and plugs is...well, yes, they are cheap, and you probably have 'em...BUT if someone doesn't know what they're doing (or simply has a foggy moment), it's very easy to destroy both the generator and/or the inverters if they're accidentally connected to AC Mains by accident.  As it sounds like you'll likely be switching between all 3 options depending on the solar/house demands fairly frequently, there's a much higher possibility of mixing something up.

Transfer switches might not be the cheapest, but they'll render it pretty much impossible to accidentally direct power somewhere that it's not supposed to go.

Transfer switches might not be the cheapest, but they'll render it pretty much impossible to accidentally direct power somewhere that it's not supposed to go

Too bad my city  do not allow  transfer  switch  as permit  and inspection  cost  at least 900  dollars .   I  use a  suicide  extension  cord  and plug  in to wrong outlet  and could of burn my house down   if I did not unplug  immediately .   

Sure I understand Sid I'm.not known for just cobbling things once I get to that point if I think that I can't properly mount and label the system simply and neatly I will of course I will get a transfer switch.all we-you have to do is tell me is it workable for what we have discussed and how the inverters need to be set up these are your and Sean's baby's.wiring and connections will be done safely.

Yes I understand if you have ever been bolted by a lot of current or seen someone burn or even seen a car burn because of cobbled wiring you tend to be cautious with it.

SO, if we use transfer switches or the like (kinda sorta bypassing the inverters' internal transfer switch!)...I think it should work.

Thinking then that if we internally rewire both of the inverters for single-phase output, and run them in split-sync mode to get a full 12kw with surge ability....then it should work for you.  (Would have to handle that via video call with you.)

Unfortunately, there would be no automatic switching, as the internal wiring and terminal blocks of the 6kw inverters aren't rated for 12-14kw.  Using external transfer switches (or whatever!), you'd have to manually switch between AC grid, inverter, and generator (and when switched to generator, the inverters could use some of the generator power to charge the batteries.)

Thoughts?

Sorry I've been busy med and especially my wife now it's Dr.dr.dr do you think that they will work better this way?I must have missed something did you all try dif circuits or just the a/c to have an idea of at what current it would go to before slave error out?you know the inverters better than I do.wander what Sean would charge me to re wire them?any chance of them having warranty if he wires them?I've been up all night this may have sounded strange sorry I need to get a few hours sleep&take my wife to phy.thearipy later thanks sid.

I forgot I know there probably best of course breakers or fusses but wanted to ask do you use a bms I have one but it's only 2ooa thanks again.

On 8/17/2021 at 7:29 AM, Tim said:

I forgot I know there probably best of course breakers or fusses but wanted to ask do you use a bms I have one but it's only 2ooa thanks again.

I do not use a BMS on my system.  Properly-rated DC breakers for overcurrent protection, and set the inverter's UVP to a safe discharge voltage for the batteries (i.e. if batteries run too low, it'll shut off).  GS balancers on the LFP bank.  To each their own, though.

On the "parallel" mode, the erroring out seemed to be rather random, not necessarily load related (though Sean's well pump surge seemed to be a trigger).  Without a solid test bench for me to test, it was rather problematic to figure out.

Rewiring for single-phase AC output can be done without too much difficulty (I would be happy to help you via video call to make sure it's done right), but only if the reduced AC input capability has been fully understood.  Sean would not charge to rewire the inverter, though shipping the units back and forth gets expensive very quickly.  And yes, he would maintain the warranty if he did the work.  (We don't want the inverter getting damaged by people poking around inside without knowing what they're doing.)

Ok are you talking reduced AC input for charging like 120v if so that's no problem it's preferred.not sure I understand about shipping I haven't got them yet was originally waiting for tweaking on parallel set up everything is still at setup mode.also I will be using breakers or fusses and probably your balancers saw some on eBay circuit board with capacitors each cell 5 or 10 a. wired but active.but you designed them I'm sure to work for systems like ours versitle.and long life.probably shut off at certain voltage. Have a daly 16s 200a never used I could get rid of if anyone needs one.havent looked up the specks on your balancers yet.are you familiar with blue sea breakers they(read ) to be ok.im thinking about them I get tired of looking at specks on breakers all over.maybe them or just fuses if the system is right you shouldn't have to replace them very often not to have to spend more money of course breakers are 1 time if correct.back to the inverters you probably won't have any extra rev.c boards coming in the 1st batch will you?that info.will let me know what to go ahead and tell Sean what to do. auto detect on AC in can be very useful.also breaking circuit on line 2 is safer if mistake is made when teaching family.i won't be here one day.my daughter's the easiest she followed me a lot growing up.&pays attention.sorry that's more than enough.long winded thank you Sid .

I...was under the impression that you'd bought the inverters, and already had them in hand.  If they're backorders for the next bunch (or not even ordered)...then that changes things considerably.

In this case, up until Sean ships the inverter to you, you can request a change on ANY available hardware setup (i.e. battery voltage, AC output).  There is no charge for changing your inverter setup BEFORE it ships--just make sure you know exactly what you want and verify it with Sean BEFORE they ship.

It is our planned goal to replace the Rev. B control boards in the ENTIRE next shipment of 60pcs inverters with Rev. C control boards--providing customers are willing to possibly wait a bit longer until we get the new boards in.  (Those that only need inverter output--no AC input--can use the original Rev. B control boards.)

I am currently still testing the 2nd prototype batch of Rev. C control boards (only 10pcs)--so far so good.  I have not placed a bulk order (thinking 100pcs) for Rev. C control boards yet, but that's awaiting final testing on the prototype boards to verify everything works as intended.

Daly BMS...balance current is the princely amount of 0.03A.  Probably sufficient for R/C toy batteries...NOT adequate for a large off-grid battery bank.  If you have a large bank (i.e. 510Ah for example), and one cell is completely out of balance, it'll mathematically take 17,000 hours to balance--in other words, right about 2 years.  In practice, however, if the cell imbalance is stronger than the balance current on the BMS, it will be completely impossible to keep the batteries balanced.

GS balancers can run up to 5A balance current, providing they are properly mounted to a significant heatsink (as they're a total loss design), with sufficiently heavy wire (i.e. 12-16AWG probably fine).

I've seen the new "active" balancers; I personally have no experience with them.  Reviews seem to indicate that for some people, they work very well.  Others, not so much.  It is worth noting that they might be rated @ 5A--BUT the issue is with the 22AWG wire they all seem to love to use for the connector.  You can't get 5A through any length of 22AWG wire without a significant voltage drop--rendering the balancer largely useless for any significant balance current.

I'm biased of course, but you've probably seen this thread of GS balancers in use:

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So far so good, which is always good to hear.

Auto AC input will only function on the Rev. C boards if the inverter is configured for split-phase 240v output. 

If the inverter is setup for single-phase 120v output, then the AC input will only accept 120v.  (Connecting 240v to the input will simply cause the inverter to alarm; it'll refuse to switch.)  However, the 2-pole relay will still fully disconnect a single-phase input from the inverter.

I am not familiar with Blue Sea Systems breakers.  Seems that several customers here on the forum have reported issues with large properly-rated DC breakers, tripping way too early.  Personally, I don't have a single fuse in my entire solar system--everything is connected with properly-rated DC breakers.  Haven't had any issues--but I also don't redline my stuff.

While I'm very biased towards breakers (super easy to shut something off for maintenance or otherwise!), fuses do have their place.  To each their own.

Yes Sid I had a laps in time to get back to you if needed look back but we discussed you rather a couple weeks ago to st up split sync remember about safety of sub panel or plug ins etc.i prepaid 2 6000 gs still at Sean's.we discussed versitle set up off grid type w generator-pv etc.i know you talk to many.my mechanical wife tore her rotator cup I was also in hospital sometimes can't get rite back.it will be 48v240v out 120in charge you said rewire I ordered for parallel but so far hasn't worked out.for the daly I don't need it it's never been used just maybe thought someone may be looking for a deal.the inverters will be either A or B boards is why I was curious about the rev c board.thought it would be more versatile for more charging voltages.trying to set up in case of unforseen circumstances safely.also after seeing blind wolfs washing machine we also unfortunately have a newer computerised one my wife hates.didnt know if you would have an extra rev c board soon.thats why I've kept waiting this long for tweaks and minor fixes.also if you're interested I have couple battery manufacturers one in which I bought some from its not a page but company.salesperson name phone I believe email info-for me to buy and or sale they make all kinds of cells and batterys to your specs .im aware of your balancers but haven't really gone over them.thats why I said I would just as soon have yours built for our type batterys.got to go for now whew no Dr for couple days.thanks Tim.

Am aware of the previous conversation.  Didn't realize until a few posts ago that the inverters hadn't actually shipped to you.

So if you were looking for 240v @ 12kw, I would still highly recommend the split-sync mode OVER parallel mode.  This requires that both inverters be set up for 120v single-phase operation; each inverter runs one of the 2 split-phases (120 + 120 = 240).  However, this does limit the AC input to 120vAC ONLY, and only 25-30A at best.  (In other words, it's not possible to handle 12kw @ 240v through the inverter inputs in this configuration.)  Rev. C board will not change this, it's a hardware limitation for single-phase configuration.

@the-blind-wolf's washing machine issues seem to have been related to a loose NEG cable in the inverter (which did cause the control board to fail; we fixed that).  Also a pretty high chance that inadequate AC output filtration was partly to blame; that can also be fixed fairly easily.  I personally have a computerized Maytag Bravos XL HE washer, and have had zero issues with it on my house inverter.

The current batch of 10 prototypes are for test purposes...I'll keep several (for prototyping/code work), Sean will get a few, and then certain specific other customers will get one or 2 for test purposes / real world feedback.  Hopefully within a couple of weeks, I'll be able to order a production batch of 100pcs; currently, I'm still gettin' the code up to speed.

Just FYI they aren't a "complete kit" per se--you just get the balancers and mica insulators.  (I haven't found an economical source for large heatsinks yet.)  You'll need to supply and solder the wires to the battery cells, AND provide a large heatsink / fan cooling.  Bit crude, I'm aware--but it was a project for myself that I figured some customers could probably successfully utilize.

Maybe if I find a source for large heatsinks, we might be able to offer a more complete setup.