powerjack 24-volt 15000W lfsp inverter new 5-14-2021 manufacture

It's confusing for me being outside of 120/240V world.  When you say a split phase device, that immediately made me think that you were referring to a 120V device, ie it goes across one of the 120V splits rather than L1 / L2 for 240V.

11 hours ago, mellowde said:

When you wire any split phase divice you do not connect the neutral to the current consuming device.  What is confusing about that?  L1 & L2 are what operates the device.  The bare copper wire, lets say in romex is merely used to ground the device in 240 volt split phase.  So no, you would not connect nor need to connect the 'N' terminal to your 240 volt device.  Now, if you were to connect a 120 volt device you would need one of the 2 hot legs (L1 or L2) and the 'N' terminal to complete a circuit.  Take a look in a house wiring breaker panel and see for yourself.  If you are using, let's say 14/2 romex wire cable with a black a white and a bare copper, you would connect the black to your breaker which is your hot leg, the white would go to your neutral bar and the bare copper would go to either a ground bar or the neutral bar in your box.  But if you were using the same cable to send 240 volt you would connect the black to either L1 or L2 and the white to the other hot leg and your bare copper would still go to either the ground or the neutral bar.  No magic...that's how electric works.

I have a submersible well pump with four wires: two 115V hot leads, a ground and a neutral

That's what I meant in my quoted post, though I definitely could have written it a bit clearer 🤣

I am not confused as to how electricity works.  The subject of my post was the PJ warning "can not use L1 + N + L2"--THAT is what is confusing as to what they mean.

My best guess is that they do not understand how U.S. split-phase systems work, and are assuming that "120v loads are L1 + N, and 240v loads are L1 + L2."  That's how their transformers (used to be) wound, with one output phase significantly thicker than the other.

However, a proper U.S. split-phase system will generally try to sort of balance 120v loads between L1 + N and L2 + N.  Obviously in a PJ with current monitoring only on L1, it won't see any loads on L2-N.

I wasn't going to mention some (older) clothes dryers that require all 4 leads (L1, N, L2, ground).  The heating element runs on 240v (L1 + L2), and the synchronous motor for fan/drum runs on 120v (either L1 + N or L2 + N).

So yes, there are definitely cases where L1 + N + L2 must be run to a device.

I'm a little late to the grounding discussion in this thread, but I will say that the kind of grounding that is most important for electrical safety has very little to do with the earth. It should be more properly called bonding to distinguish it from grounding but we are stuck with it.

The neutral of a system is grounded in order to give a fault current a path to complete the circuit. The earth has nothing to do with it. Without the neutral ground connection, live wires coming in contact with metal enclosures just energize the enclosure. But a grounded neutral connection allows for a complete circuit and enough current will flow to open the fuse or breaker.

 Without the neutral ground connection, live wires coming in contact with metal enclosures just energize the enclosure. But a grounded neutral connection allows for a complete circuit and enough current will flow to open the fuse or breaker.

This  youtube  video show improper  bonding  by the user .  Could this cause a liabilty problem for GS  inverter and the user is electrocuted  by  miss-wiring ??           

In TNCS or similar systems where there is a local neutral earth link:

a live/line/active/hot to chassis where that chassis is connected the the internal earthing system will see the fault current go almost entirely across the neutral earth link.

for items that are in physical contact with the ground but do not have the internal earth wire connected, their fault current will go via the ground and return in some combination of back up the premises earth stake (or what ever).  In the case of a distributed earth / neutral also direct back to the grid neutral via its earth as well as back up the earth stake of surrounding premises.  Also in this case a very small amount of current will also pass through the earth stake in the case of the hot to earth chassis fault.

Passing current through the ground may not be sufficient to blow fuses or open breakers if the earthing system and contact of that thing with the ground is not 'good' enough or there is simply too much distance between the point of contact and the earth stake and can leave the thing with considerable voltage on it relative to the surrounding ground.

If the neutral to the premises fails the load will be returned by the earth stake.  The comparatively high impedance of the earth stake vs the wired neutral will see the entire premises earthing system and anything bonded to it rise up towards the supply voltage.  Anyone holding onto any metal part of the earthing system and be in contact with the ground will likely be shocked, and perhaps electrocuted.  An RCD/GFCI downstream of the neutral earth link will not detect nor protect against this type of fault.

For single phase supplies this will see the voltage in the premises duck and weave based on the load, lights dim and stay dim when a heavy appliance is turned on.  For two or more phase supplies the voltage on the phases will move apart depending on the load.  The heavily loaded phase will go down and the others go up.

Basically, don't screw around with the earthing system. 🙂

I just finished wiring a single indoor 115V duplex receptacle to my PowerJack inverter in the shed. The wall receptacle uses the same ground as the grid circuit panel. The inverter case is grounded to a underground water pipe. There are two wires in the run, a hot and a neutral, with a 20A single pole mini circuit breaker inline.

Just watched that YT clip and he appears to not actually understand what is going on.  He seems to think that there is 'power going into the ground'.  What he's seeing is simply the neutral / earth link at his own premises and his neighbour's and the supply transformer's too (if present).  Take a hot wire, put a load on it, stick the other wire in the ground and current will flow through the ground and back up the earth stake / anything else metallic that is bonded and in contact with the ground.  It's why his GFCI on the circuit tripped with the blower motor.  The motor passed too much current around the GFCI, so it did what it should and tripped.

Running with a completely isolated supply will work but it robs you of one aspect of the protection the GFCI/RCD offers.  Technically in a guaranteed isolated supply you can hold onto any hot wire and not receive a shock.  You can still receive a shock going across the current carrying conductors of course.  A GFCI in a properly earthed system will actually offer protection for such a situation since there will likely still be enough leakage around the GFCI for it to trip.  It's next to impossible to guarantee isolation in the real world so the better choice is to force tie one conductor to the earth system and the physical ground and declare it as the neutral.  That will then permit the GFCI to trip if you only come into contact with one conductor and have a decent enough path to the ground through your body to cause dangerous current levels to flow.

Incorrect installation of equipment is not the fault of the equipment nor manufacturer.  Genetry could cover the situation if there was concern by putting a clause similar to 'we advise professional installation by a licenced electrician'

And it is therefore grounded to the earth but not bonded to the inverter neutral. A hot to ground short circuit won't do anything.

And it is therefore grounded to the earth but not bonded to the inverter neutral. A hot to ground short circuit won't do anything.

You could be electocuted  and  GS  will not be responsible ??    My inverter  case  and all  receptacles  uses the same ground as the grid circuit panel.   

Where to ground the neutral is situational and changes depending on the site specifics. GS shouldn't be responsible for a lack of knowledge on the user's part.

Hmmm... This all has me very confused. I believe I personally represent about 95% of the morons described within this thread. I held a journeyman electrician's license in 2002, I build custom electronics and automated machinery, and am considered a master electrician on automobiles. 

However, I'm completely lost. I skipped the "building a power supply" lesson when I taught myself electronics, been kicking myself ever since. Long story short (too late): I fried an inverter. I think. And, I had it replaced by Amazon- and still have not returned the old one. Of course, i never received the replacement, but I have 14 days left to return this and I want to figure this out first so I can decide if it's worth buying another. 

Upon first power up, it sparked and smoked immediately. Shut down my MPPT solar controller in the process along with all of my 12 volt loads. Thankfully, or so I thought, I had my finger on the disconnect for the input breaker. Shut off, did some research. Figured it was a ground issue. Went through my entire rv, disconnected every single ground. Cut the ground off my transfer switch. Disconnected the shore power. Removed all ground lines from my transfer switch coming from shore power, generator, and into my panel. Decided to treat ground as a hot wire and completely isolate before I reconnected anything. Haven't done that yet, been spending all my time trying to figure this inverter out.

Got all the grounds isolated, tried it again. Snap crackle pop. Lost my 12-volt again, lots of smoke this time. 

I don't understand the 110 output on this. I purchased it to run both 110 lines to my panel, so that I can run my 50 amp service like normal. I guess I can't do that? Still haven't found a solid answer.

Still don't understand the ground, I hear bond it, I hear don't bond it. I don't know what the hell is going on. Doesn't seem like the experts can agree on it either.

All I know is this: I have blown mosfets, blown mosfet boards, a blown LF driver, I'm going to assume a blown main board because the LED popped off of it, a replacement that I never received, no solid answers on grounding, no solid answer on 110 outputs (I'm going to assume at this point I only have one and the four terminals are really just a waste of space), and I only have time to work on it on the weekends which of course means no tech support,

so...

Before you guys go bashing the "morons", take a moment to consider the bullshit we have to deal with because the crap we are buying is built and sold by morons. A simple instruction manual FOR THE PRODUCT THAT I PURCHASED AND NOT SOME OTHER PIECE OF JUNK would go a long way.

sorry, didn't intend on writing that but it seemed fitting. 

anyway, some help clearing this up would be greatly appreciated. And... 

spare us the electrical details on how the toroidal is wired, etc please, if you could - just put it layman's terms so my 14yo son could understand what you are saying, you know - for all the morons. 

Oh yes, I forgot to mention: I had wired n to feed both sides of panel. L1 fed one side, l2 fed other side. All breakers were turned off when the inverter was powered on. This cannot be the source of the fault, but I absolutely do need clarification as to whether or not I can do this. And regardless of what I hear, i will be grounding all cases together, but I will not be connecting the ground to my RV chassis. The shore power ground will be disconnected via an external set of contactors which will also act as the power disconnect and transfer switch for the inverter. This will allow me to run separate 110v systems from different sources, and have it all automatic. And I'll never have to worry about another ground issue regardless of what type of inverter or generator i use. 

Don't discount that it is simply a PJ inverter being a PJ inverter and letting the magic smoke out for no good reason.  Since the unit has actually smoked I'm afraid that it's probably destroyed already.  Connecting it up again even without anything wire up on its AC output terminals will probably just result in more smoke.  None the less, if you are game, and have nothing on the AC output at all, no wires, zip.  Power it up and see if smoke ensues.  To be honest, I'm not optimistic.

Beware that L1 to neutral and L2 to neutral are not balanced like you expect from any sane product.  It's my understanding (not actually owning one of these pieces of junk) that PJ winds their output transformer such that L1 has much higher current capability than L2.  This has been commented on elsewhere on the forum.  So if you are expecting to be able to load either side of your 120V panel up and run what you'd imagine to be maximum amps on either leg, it won't do it.

As far as actually getting 50A out either as 2 x 120V services or across L1 L2 for 240V, sorry to tell you but it just won't do it.  PJ is notorious for overstating the capabilities of their products.  It might do half, it might do 1/4 of that.

Hope that hasn't let you down too much.  It's just the way of the PJ products.