PLEASE NOTE: If you had an account with the previous forum, it has been ported to the new Genetry website!
You will need to reset the password to access the new forum. Click Log In → Forgot Password → enter your username or forum email address → click Email Reset Link.
The move was for efficiency (typically 95%+) and BoM cost reduction. Most grid tie inverters have no isolation between the panels and the mains so fusing on both legs of the solar array is required in a lot of countries. They are essentially a buck/boost MPPT which produces a high voltage DC supply, then into a h-bridge to produce the AC output and an output low pass filter to remove the PWM from it.
So is rev 11.1 a step forward or back?
So it works well at 4kw for some time?
The rev 11.1 board is a step forward because it has current limit that works to shut down the inverter at 1/4 of the advertise power so my 15kw will shut down at 4000 to 5000 watt and same the FETs . It is a step backward from the rev 10.3 control board where I can get 8000 watt to start the 4 ton heat pump but the FETs will blow if the heat pump do not start in 6 seconds . I am using the 15kw now running 16 hours at less than 4000 watts with no problem and the FETs never blow . I like the rev 11.1 control boerd because it save me a lot of money by not blowing the FETs. .
3 hours ago, Paul said:don't use the charging function, nor have one of the batch with dodgy capacitors (black rather than brown)
I've never tried loading mine above 4kW (50% of it's chinese rating) but I would imagine if you go much beyond this the transformer will get very hot despite the best efforts of the cooling fan.
Black caps dodgy, brown good? I'll take another gander at the photos.
Did you notice the missing capacitor second from last photo? Is this normal?
I'm dying to know, what are your fuses 25 or 30amp?
I like the rev 11.1 control boerd because it save me a lot of money by not blowing the FETs. .
Ah ha 🙂
52 minutes ago, TheButcher said:The move was for efficiency (typically 95%+) and BoM cost reduction. Most grid tie inverters have no isolation between the panels and the mains so fusing on both legs of the solar array is required in a lot of countries. They are essentially a buck/boost MPPT which produces a high voltage DC supply, then into a h-bridge to produce the AC output and an output low pass filter to remove the PWM from it.
I had my grid tie panels up for over three years un fused 😱 , when I decided to fit one, it melted the fuse holder.
I'm now fitting an industrial fused switch box.
BoM?
Black caps dodgy, brown good? I'll take another gander at the photos.
Looks like you have the brown caps so all ok there. PJ learned their lesson a couple of years ago on that one.
I think the missing capacitor is a penny-pinching excercise. Three is _just enough_ for it to work but 4 is better. In my other thread mentioned above you will see I sourced and added the missing cap myself, as well as a few other mods to improve cooling etc.
As for fuses, I have no idea what was in them as I binned them and replaced with 20A thermal circuit breakers for better reliability than the cheap chinese fuseholders. Plus I have a 16A RCBO on the local DB in the garage before feeding back to the house, so the inverter is well protected against overload.
The rev 11.1 board is a step forward because it has current limit that works to shut down the inverter at 1/4 of the advertise power so my 15kw will shut down at 4000 to 5000 watt and same the FETs . It is a step backward from the rev 10.3 control board where I can get 8000 watt to start the 4 ton heat pump but the FETs will blow if the heat pump do not start in 6 seconds . I am using the 15kw now running 16 hours at less than 4000 watts with no problem and the FETs never blow . I like the rev 11.1 control boerd because it save me a lot of money by not blowing the FETs. .
There is no FET current limit ability or sensing on any PJ board, 11.1 included. It is identical to the 10.3(C) boards except for a small circuit adjusting the "output current feedback" for charge, and a few other minor things (i.e. upgraded fan control FET).
The difference @dickson is experiencing between the boards is simply the DIP switch output AC current "limit" adjustment setting being different between the 2 boards.
So is rev 11.1 a step forward or back?
It's a teeny tiny step forward...but not significantly.
It's a teeny tiny step forward...but not significantly
The GS 6kw never blow up the FETs because of the current limit shut down . That is a big step forward . When the PJ 15kw 20kw 25kw 30kw FETs blow up the LF driver and the rev 10.3 control board and the fire will destroy the main board and all need to be replace . I do not mind running my 15kw PJ now at less than 4000 watt if the rev 11.1 control board shut down and save the FETs . The FETs not blowing up will mean saving the LF driver and control board and the mainboard and save a lot of money .
20 hours ago, Bear said:Some new photos.
<a href="/monthly_2021_12/LABLE.jpg.378baa8a5e22ec1697e17bde41cdaf8d.jpg" title="Enlarge image" data-fileid="985" data-fileext="jpg" rel=""><img alt="LABLE.jpg.378baa8a5e22ec1697e17bde41cdaf8d.jpg" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="985" data-ratio="63.74" style="height:auto;" width="422" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/LABLE.jpg.378baa8a5e22ec1697e17bde41cdaf8d.jpg" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image" data-fileext="JPG" data-fileid="986" href="/monthly_2021_12/3.JPG.95248f556c055064e704891640c11f05.JPG" rel=""><img alt="3.thumb.JPG.df8564adc5e1ba022b01a5018af2a50d.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="986" data-ratio="67.10" style="height:auto;" width="1000" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/3.thumb.JPG.df8564adc5e1ba022b01a5018af2a50d.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image" data-fileext="JPG" data-fileid="987" href="/monthly_2021_12/4.JPG.c013d29fce60d2cebd35a5b54ec6f482.JPG" rel=""><img alt="4.thumb.JPG.94693201b84e01a8f0cd47aebff29619.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="987" data-ratio="66.30" style="height:auto;" width="1000" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/4.thumb.JPG.94693201b84e01a8f0cd47aebff29619.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image" data-fileext="JPG" data-fileid="988" href="/monthly_2021_12/5.JPG.3f5f15aa44254c7fe1b8763f43663d20.JPG" rel=""><img alt="5.thumb.JPG.d8b52944cad97a5b73e0aacb18df6956.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="988" data-ratio="48.40" style="height:auto;" width="1000" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/5.thumb.JPG.d8b52944cad97a5b73e0aacb18df6956.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image" data-fileext="JPG" data-fileid="989" href="/monthly_2021_12/6.JPG.d4914f592285f068f8b5fd4cff1ac3be.JPG" rel=""><img alt="6.thumb.JPG.7931ad9af2d831ce023eb720e189229f.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="989" data-ratio="53.50" style="height:auto;" width="1000" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/6.thumb.JPG.7931ad9af2d831ce023eb720e189229f.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a class="ipsAttachLink ipsAttachLink_image" data-fileext="JPG" data-fileid="990" href="/monthly_2021_12/7.JPG.b53df93813aa01dc65494727c8c49667.JPG" rel=""><img alt="7.thumb.JPG.6df45ee19618879729f0fe77a75cf52c.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="990" data-ratio="82.96" style="height:auto;" width="904" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/7.thumb.JPG.6df45ee19618879729f0fe77a75cf52c.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
<a href="/monthly_2021_12/8.JPG.1e513158bf8a80107143bd003fd43895.JPG" title="Enlarge image" data-fileid="991" data-fileext="JPG" rel=""><img alt="8.JPG.1e513158bf8a80107143bd003fd43895.JPG" class="ipsImage ipsImage_thumbnailed" data-fileid="991" data-ratio="75.06" style="height:auto;" width="878" data-src="//content.invisioncic.com/g308908/monthly_2021_12/8.JPG.1e513158bf8a80107143bd003fd43895.JPG" src="/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" />
That's an ASL4. If my ASL3 can survive a sustained 3.5kW (albeit with very flattened peaks on the sine wave) then I would expect the ASL4 to survive 5kW or more sustained power with the cooling fan running correctly. Most devices are not affected by the flattened peaks on the sine wave except some old microwave ovens and cheap Chinese LED lighting controllers. I would expect yours to produce a near-perfect sine wave up to about 2kW.
Sid probably has more experience of what each transformer size can cope with than I do though :).
Mine was improved slightly by removing one turn from the primary winding and putting the surplus wire as two turns through a second ferrite ring choke instead.
It's also well worth adding that missing capacitor for the £5 or so that they cost as it will help the device cope with sudden surges in demand e.g. a fridge compressor starting.
Modern washing machines don't create sudden surges because their motor current is ramped-up over a second or so by an electronic controller, unlike compressor motors in fridges, freezers etc which are hard-switched on and off.
That's an ASL4. If my ASL3 can survive a sustained 3.5kW (albeit with very flattened peaks on the sine wave) then I would expect the ASL4 to survive 5kW or more
I have an 8kw PJ with ASL4 and 40 FETs that will run a 5hp air compressor with the rev 10.3 control board wired 240 vac L1 L2 60 hz . The rev 11.1 control board that replace the working rev 10.3 board will not start the the 5 hp air compreesor . This is the one of a kind PJ 8kw inverter with the mainboard that is a solid block with no cooling fin and has 40 FETs .
Well ASL4 is a good point I suppose, but it all smacks of "Electronics club", nerds arsing around with "Hobby Electrics" 🙂
To a point that is me, but there is serious **** going down in the world. Like our monetary system going down the tubes. Try getting spare parts in a Veimar republic type economy..... I need something reliable.
To be honest, after reading everything, I have lost confidence. Not just in this brand but things from China in general. The other day I bought an MPPT charge controller that turned out to be PWM, and the photo shows 48V but it was only 24v. Guitar pickups that are no where near the stated ohms, bridges that are unusable etc etc.
I have kind of made my mind up and getting an SMA Sunny Island SI4.4M-11 Inverter Charger 48V. It's only 4.4kw but it will give me genuine 4.4 for 30mins. It charges batteries (I don't know if it does LiFePo4 though), switches to the mains when batteries are low etc. Oh, almost forgot it has transformers so it looks like it may be Low Frequency, and it is a sealed unit so no damp air getting in. And the best thing is, it's not Chinese, it's made in Germany.
I have seen photos of those solid blocks and assumed it was a test unit, but it seems not! That solid block would have quite high thermal mass but quite poor heat dissipation capability so you can see what PJ was up to with that. Using the thermal mass to allow short term high heat output from the FETs to give the appearance of the inverter being something it wasn't.
2 hours ago, Bear said:I have kind of made my mind up and getting an SMA Sunny Island SI4.4M-11 Inverter Charger 48V. It's only 4.4kw but it will give me genuine 4.4 for 30mins
I hope you get this as I will (selfishly!) be anxious to hear how it performs. And if it is low frequency. And if it's as reliable as you hope. Made in Germany seems to promise a better quality. I hope it's true too.
Those don't come in split phase, do they?
2 hours ago, TheButcher said:I have seen photos of those solid blocks and assumed it was a test unit, but it seems not! That solid block would have quite high thermal mass but quite poor heat dissipation capability so you can see what PJ was up to with that. Using the thermal mass to allow short term high heat output from the FETs to give the appearance of the inverter being something it wasn't.
I bought a upower 15kw 48v a few years back. It was when upower was "new" as a name. I thought I was buying a powerjack at the time. I probably wasn't paying enough attention, as it appeared to be a powerjack with the same lame ad copy they always use. The point is that it had the first 'small' mainboard I had ever heard of from powerjack, and it also had the solid block heatsinks without fins. Seemed to me the dumbest thing powerjack had done in awhile (They have topped that since!) I had not then and still till just now had not heard of anyone else getting one of the solid block heatsinks. Thought mine was one of a kind.
It is a v9 control by the way. Anyway, it worked ok but heated up fast, so I did my usual mods to help cooling. Unbolted the transformer, raised it up on rubber blocks, and added additional faster fans and independent fan control. It ran ok, handled the usual house loads adequately and was in use for several months, but was very noisy because of the fan noise. Went back to my older 15kw pj. Much quieter.
Everything is a compromise between cost and reliability. But even the highest quality (thus supposedly reliable) stuff sometimes fails prematurely.
As some have seen ffrom my other posts I have a PJ 8k (v1.4) from 2013 which still works fine. Unlike the Victron of the same era despite the Victron unit appearing to be much better designed (as viewed from an engineers perspective like mine) but completely unsupported by the manufacturer now. Whereas if my 2013 PJ failed, I could get the current version of boards from China and make it work again with fairly basic electronics skills.
The 2020 upower 8k is more efficient than the 2013 PJ but the ASL3 transformer isn't as large a mass as the 2x AS2 transformers that are wired in series on the 2013 PJ.
I've seen the ones with the solid heatsinks, and thought why on earth would any idiot do that!!?? Thankfully I've never received one like that.
Good luck with the SMA Sunny. It will certainly do what it says on the tin but how many times the price of a PJ/upower of equal capability? (use a 10kW or 15kW PJ/Upower for comparison as this number of chinese watts would equate to the sustained 4.4kW rating of the Sunny).
I agree with <a contenteditable="false" data-ipshover="" data-ipshover-target="/profile/110-bear/?do=hovercard" data-mentionid="110" href="/profile/110-bear/" rel="">@Bear with the apparent apocalypse looming it is wise to start building a reliable off-grid power system amongst other things, but what happens when your expensive Sunny breaks and you can't contact the manufacturer, or they don't have spares? Or someone breaks into the garage and steals it for their own use... In my case I have spare batteries and a spare PJ inverter sitting in the house some distance from the garage so could reinstate power pretty quick in a post-apocolyptic world :).
However my real motivation for experimenting with off-grid power was that about 3 years ago I anticipated an 'energy crisis' due to all our nuclear plants being decommissioned due to end of life and little progress building new ones. So I decided to start building a backup as I knew grid prices would rise dramatically and availability may become intermittent. People laughed at me then, but now the chickens are coming home to roost! I did a 2 year fixed price with EDF energy in march 2020 at 8p/16p per kWh. Now the best rates (excluding the government capped rate which is well below market rate but set to rise by at least 50% in April 2022) is 16p/35p per kWh and we haven't even had a real still, cloudy, cold spell yet this winter to test the UK grid's extreme dependence on gas power generation...