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Still in the box with packing in place.
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Well it has been powered up. And it does not like my wiring to the change over box. PJ inverter was running the unit just fine with the Ground not tied to the Neutral. But this time thru, I bonded the Ground and Neutral in my service disconnect breaker panel and as soon as power was applied, it tripped the GFCI receptacle. Removed the box from the circuit and all was fine. Now have to check to see if it is the cords, the PJ 3000 Watt Transformer, or my boxes wiring that is causing it to trip. If the box and cords supplying it are unplugged, I can plug other stuff in and all works fine.
Where is the GFCI in all of this? A neutral/ground bond downstream of a GFCI will cause it to trip.
It seems it is the motor control circuit in the ATS that is causing the GFCI to trip. All of my wiring is such that it isolates the output to either the normal commercial power or the Inverter power so that only leaves the ATS motor circuit that could be causing it. If I unplug the commercial power side, it transfers to the Inverter with no problems and runs the refrigerator.
Where is the GFCI in all of this? A neutral/ground bond downstream of a GFCI will cause it to trip.
The bond is in the service disconnect breaker box as is the breaker for the 120 Volt outlets. Once it goes thru that breaker, then it goes directly to the GFCI receptacle which feeds the other two 120 Volt duplex outlets. There is no bond downstream of the GFCI in my outlet wiring. What it appears is the ATS motor control has a common Neutral inside it. So it picks it up from there. I tried it with the ATS turned on but the commercial power disconnected and it operated fine without the GFCI tripping. So the ATS motor control circuit is the only place where the two could make a connection as all other parts are isolated by the transfer switch and relays.
With the ATS power switch off, I can do manual transfers and it does not trip the GFCI so it definitely is in the motor control circuit.
20 hours ago, Waterman said:Well it has been powered up. And it does not like my wiring to the change over box. PJ inverter was running the unit just fine with the Ground not tied to the Neutral. But this time thru, I bonded the Ground and Neutral in my service disconnect breaker panel and as soon as power was applied, it tripped the GFCI receptacle. Removed the box from the circuit and all was fine. Now have to check to see if it is the cords, the PJ 3000 Watt Transformer, or my boxes wiring that is causing it to trip. If the box and cords supplying it are unplugged, I can plug other stuff in and all works fine.
So I desperately need to get to work on the manual. We've run into an issue with the 12kw on ATS testing at Sean's place...the ground-neutral bonding causes serious issues if you try to run 240vAC into the inverter. Basically, the internal relay only disconnects I-L1. If you have it set for 240v, I-L2 goes to the mains L2...BUT the ground-neutral bonding will backfeed Mains Neutral into the O-N (Output Neutral) terminal on the inverter--powering the N - L2 side of the transformer, even when the inverter's internal relay is off. Not only can this damage the inverter, the CPU also can't see this problematic power flow. (It WILL, however, notice the voltage on the output of the transformer when you turn it on, and will refuse to enter inverter mode. If AC Mains is connected while it's running...well, it might blow up.)
Admittedly, this is exactly the same problem a PJ would have. Only they'd just go right ahead and blow up regardless 😉.
Bit of an issue. I was struggling to find a 50-amp PCB mount relay...but for the life of me, I can't seem to find a double-pole relay to disconnect both sides of the AC input circuit. Sure, I could add another relay to disconnect both sides separately, but...
On a different subject, I do see you found the screen flip function 😉.
On a different subject, I do see you found the screen flip function 😉.
First thing I went looking for.
So I desperately need to get to work on the manual. We've run into an issue with the 12kw on ATS testing at Sean's place...the ground-neutral bonding causes serious issues if you try to run 240vAC into the inverter. Basically, the internal relay only disconnects I-L1. If you have it set for 240v, I-L2 goes to the mains L2...BUT the ground-neutral bonding will backfeed Mains Neutral into the O-N (Output Neutral) terminal on the inverter--powering the N - L2 side of the transformer, even when the inverter's internal relay is off. Not only can this damage the inverter, the CPU also can't see this problematic power flow. (It WILL, however, notice the voltage on the output of the transformer when you turn it on, and will refuse to enter inverter mode. If AC Mains is connected while it's running...well, it might blow up.)
I am now completely befuddled. I have an Identical transfer switch. It shows no connections between Neutrals in any mode. So I checked the box. It too shows no connections in any mode when checked with a DVOM. But yet it will trip the GFCI if I allow it to attempt a transfer or if I manually transfer power with the inverter on. If the inverter is off when I manually throw it from Commercial to Inverter and then power up the inverter, it is fine. When you switch it manually, when turning the handle, the power indicator light does flicker even if there is no external power. I wonder if the GFCI is detecting the generated voltage of the motor.
Can you sketch a diagram of the layout? I read it like the GFCI is basically the end of the chain and it is tripping from some upstream problem... Which isn't how GFCIs work. The only time I've seen that was from dirty power or RF interference.
Fun side story: Remember Nextel and Direct Connect from the first decade of the 2000s? Cellphones with walkie talkies basically. I was in a medical facility trouble shooting something. I opened a breaker panel full of GFCI breakers and pulled out my phone to radio someone. As soon as I hit the button to talk, all the GFCI breakers tripped. 20+ breakers tripping simultaneously is an event to behold. I was thrilled that I discovered something neat, but the facility was none too happy with this blackout!
Can you sketch a diagram of the layout? I read it like the GFCI is basically the end of the chain and it is tripping from some upstream problem... Which isn't how GFCIs work. The only time I've seen that was from dirty power or RF interference.
Oh my!!! dang, yes that would have been one hell of a trip to watch happen. . . I hope nobody got killed for that one. . .
Can you sketch a diagram of the layout? I read it like the GFCI is basically the end of the chain and it is tripping from some upstream problem... Which isn't how GFCIs work. The only time I've seen that was from dirty power or RF interference.
Inverter > Breaker Panel where the Ground and Neutral are bonded > 2 pole Breaker for incoming power > single pole Breaker for 120V out > GFCI receptacle in first outlet box > second outlet box with regular receptacle > third outlet box with regular receptacle > Cord to the transfer switch box > Transfer Switch box < incoming commercial power. Transfer switch box has two outlets which are fed from either commercial power or inverter power. Inside the box are single pole 15 Amp breakers for each power source. The Inverter side has a timing delay relay, a 40 Amp relay, meter, before it gets to the motorized transfer switch. Motorized transfer switch is powered from either side to throw it. Delay relay powers the 40 Amp relay to allow for inrush currents and to allow the inverter to get up to speed before the transfer switch throws. The reason for the transfer switch was to isolate the line, neutral, and ground from each source from the other. So no, the GFCI is not at the end, it is at the start of the inverter side and should never see the commercial side power. Looks like I need to use one set of contacts on the relay for the Neutral side so that when the relay is powered, it breaks the Neutral from commercial power.
And yes, I know about the Nextel units. I had one at my side 24/7 for work.
Some transfer switches transfer the neutral, some don't. If the neutral is solid and not switched, sounds like a good place to look.
Some transfer switches transfer the neutral, some don't. If the neutral is solid and not switched, sounds like a good place to look.
Mine I know is as it is switched on two 4 pole breakers. The only place for the common connection is inside the motor control circuitry. I cannot get any connectivity readings even thru there but that has to be where it is. Digital VOM shows no connections when breakers are in the open positions.
It could be capacitive, ie no DC path, so a meter in ohms mode will not read it.